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| bobw |
 Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 5:10 pm |
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Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 10
Location: Chattanooga TN
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greetings,
what word of advice might you give to someone who would like to try to write a new tune to an old text? in my case, I have very little previous songwriting experience.
thanks. |
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| lbro |
| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:30 pm |
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Joined: 15 Feb 2006
Posts: 19
Location: Pendleton, SC
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| my best advice is to keep at it... any type of writing can be frustrating; it takes a while to get good at the craft, but you can't get any better if you don't keep plugging away at it. |
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| Kevin Twit |
| Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 4:25 pm |
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Joined: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 10
Location: Nashville TN
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My advice is to find a text that moves you and then speak it out loud over and over seeking to capture the mood and find a natural rhythm for the text and then seek to just begin to song a melody. Afte that, try to find chords that support the melody. I think that the best tunes I have done have been ones that started as a melody rather than a guitar riff as this is music that most people will approach by singing rather than playing. I can usally tell when a tune was conceived as a guitar riff or chord progression 1st and usually the melody is far less interesting. This of course is not a hard an fast rule, but it has been my approach more and more.
Examples of tunes that began as melody's for me would be Dear Refuge and Arise, but ones that began as guitar riffs were Sometimes A Light and O For A Thousand. Thou Lovely Source began when I went from that D chord to the Am/D and just found that progression evocative, but then I sang a melody and built a melody from there before finding a chord progression. I Heard The Voice of Jesus and I Need Thee began as melodies as well which is why there are some interesting notes in I Heard The Voice that are jazzy tensions against the chords. I would never have went to those notes if I had written the chords 1st I suspect. |
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| crazymethodist |
| Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 5:29 pm |
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Joined: 01 Mar 2006
Posts: 4
Location: Norman, Oklahoma
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| That is great advice! And so true, so true. It would be good advice for writing a tune to any text, not just an old hymn. |
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| bluesman |
| Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 6:42 pm |
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Joined: 10 May 2006
Posts: 2
Location: Chattanooga
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Well, first of all, how much experience do you have with playing music?
I also live in Chattanooga by the way. |
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| north carolina |
| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 2:14 pm |
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Joined: 18 Oct 2006
Posts: 76
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Here's a new song written about a month ago that A. Warnock said, "I predict that this will be a massive, massive song. It just expresses the gospel better than anything new I have heard for a long time. I dare you to go and listen to this right now. I can't wait till they release a band version which is apparently coming soon. The music PDF is also available. It was apparently inspired by a Puritan prayer.
http://adrianwarnock.com/2008/06/fresh-new-grace-song-inspired-by.htm
1. The grace of my God, an unbreakable chain,
for those He redeems, He in grace will sustain.
I will treasure the cross and rejoice in the Prize,
This unspeakable Gift! This the gospel of Christ!
2. Without Him my eyes would be downcast in guilt,
And in trembling shame would my lips have been sealed.
Yet my mouth fills with praise, when I call on His name
And my eyes may delight in the wonders of Christ!
Yes, wave upon wave of grace reaches me,
He deals with my sin and He washes me clean.
And each accusation is drowned by His blood,
For Jesus has paid with immeasurable love!
3. Without Him is hell, where His wrath will consume,
In perpetual fire; an eternity doomed.
Yet in Him is all love, and my soul is at rest,
For hell's gates have been barred through His glorious death!
4. Without Him the darkness is all I can see,
And the terror of sin would abound within me.
Yet a boundless horizon of glory is mine,
When Christ in the depths of my heart is all light!
5. By grace my affection is drawn to the Lord,
And by grace I'm renewed by the power of His word.
It is grace that will strengthen my will and resolve
To live for my Christ 'til I kneel at His throne!
Matt Giles © 2008. Honeycomb Music Publishing Ltd.
v1, v2, ch, v3, ch, v4, ch, ch (instrumental), v5, ch.
http://www.myspace.com/mattgilesmelodies |
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| hymnsrock |
| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:12 pm |
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Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 84
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(interesting post and comments from http://twentytwowords.com/2008/07/15/should-competent-lyricists-update-hymns-or-should-they-simply-write-new-ones/ )
Should competent lyricists update hymns or should they simply write new ones?
If a songwriter is long dead, is it ethically or artistically appropriate to change their work, and then call myself a co-writer?
21 Comments »
Tony wrote @ July 15, 2008 at 7:25 am
I would say write new ones, or, give yourself credit as an arranger, not co-writer.
John Murphy wrote @ July 15, 2008 at 8:14 am
No more than it would be to re-write “Gone With The Wind” and call myself a co-author with Margaret Mitchell.
Andrew wrote @ July 15, 2008 at 8:15 am
I don’t see any problem with updating a hymn’s language if it’s truly necessary (i.e. if the language is potentially unintelligible to 21st-century English speakers). But I think the way to give oneself credit for such alteration is to cite the original author, with “altered by” or “additional lyrics by,” instead of putting oneself on equal standing with the author.
B. Minich wrote @ July 15, 2008 at 8:16 am
If you do write additional lyrics, don’t claim authorship. I’ve seen people put their name after crediting themselves as writing “additional lyrics”, which gives the modern writer credit but doesn’t imply that you are co-writer. (Plus, you know who to go to if you hate the new verse.)
Mike Tong wrote @ July 15, 2008 at 8:21 am
No.
Michael Krahn wrote @ July 15, 2008 at 8:23 am
Before those two questions you need to ask this one: Is it legal?
If it is, and the rights holder gives you permission to rewrite or rearrange the song, then it is entirely appropriate ethically.
Artistically… I guess it depends on the quality of the work of the modern (re)writer.
Which song are you thinking of?
Is this another jab at Chris Tomlin?
Paul wrote @ July 15, 2008 at 8:44 am
I think it is important to respect the wishes of the “dead songwriter”. For instance, Charles Wesley told his brother John:
“Sing them exactly as they are printed here, without altering or (a) mending them at all.”
In any case, I don’t see a problem with rearranging the music in most hymns, but the lyrics should stay the same.
Adding extra lyrics can be effective and helpful, but thanks to Mr. Tomlin we will now have people wondering why we sing the “old” version of Amazing Grace when the new one is so much better…
Abraham Piper wrote @ July 15, 2008 at 9:12 am
The ethical question is basically the golden rule:
Would you want someone taking what you’ve written and then changing it?
If not, it seems ethically inappropriate even if it is legal.
Tony wrote @ July 15, 2008 at 9:44 am
At the church I attended as a kid: someone painted a mural in a classroom. A few years later, someone else revised it, and put a tag on it crediting the original artist with the “concept,” and themselves as the “finish artist.” This, without the original artist’s permission or knowledge. Needless to say, it didn’t go over very well (lack of permission, how the credit was handled, and that someone felt they needed to improve on the artwork.)
I do see your point, Abraham.
Ben wrote @ July 15, 2008 at 9:45 am
For me, the words are why we pass hymns down through hundreds of years. I don’t have a big problem with updating KJV language to something more modern. I don’t have a big problem with adding a chorus like what Chris Tomlin did for Amazing Grace. I think the point for me of updating hymns is to bring the amazing truths that the songs embody to an audience that may be put off by a pipe organ rendition for example. It’s when we start messing with the message of the song that we start to get in trouble, IMHO. I don’t think anybody’s advocating that here, so I’m fine with it.
Rachel wrote @ July 15, 2008 at 9:51 am
if you changed lyrics or added a verse. if you changed the music, it would only be arrangement credit.
jamsco wrote @ July 15, 2008 at 10:01 am
Whatever they do, I hope no one ever changes “I love you Lord (and I lift my voice)”. That one’s perfect as it stands!
Michael Krahn wrote @ July 15, 2008 at 11:19 am
Abraham,
It depends on the artistic merit of the person who wants to change my song and share writing credit with me. For example, if old Zimmy found one of my songs enticing enough to add a lyric to or change a bar here or there, I’d be thrilled!
If, on the other hand, a C-list amateur wanted to rewrite (aka butcher) it I’d be calling my lawyer.
This is a huge problem with the artists I work with in my studio. Most are early in their careers and first time recording artists. I often make suggestions on lyric and arrangement choices and they are rarely heeded, but (and this is very rewarding for me) more often than not, after they have another project and a few years under their belts, they’re embarrassed by their first album for the very reasons I tried to point out at the time.
Rob H wrote @ July 15, 2008 at 11:32 am
You’re gonna hate what I’m doing to Cowper… ;o)
Abraham Piper wrote @ July 15, 2008 at 11:35 am
I’m all for changing the music.
It’s changing the lyrics that seems like a stickier issue.
Michael Krahn wrote @ July 15, 2008 at 11:49 am
Is music less important to the song? The question almost sounds ridiculous - “Is MUSIC important to SONG?”
Now, I’m a lyric guy, so I want to say that the music is less important, but Marshall McLuhan would certainly say “no”. The medium is at least part of the message, if not completely the message itself.
Chris T. wrote @ July 15, 2008 at 11:56 am
I think that a talented artist should spend most of their time creating something original and unique. Updating someone’s creation should not be confused with improving that creation.
Abraham Piper wrote @ July 15, 2008 at 11:56 am
I don’t mean music is less important.
I just mean that since most hymns weren’t written for only one tune, it’s not an issue of artistic integrity to switch tunes around, including writing new ones.
ED… wrote @ July 15, 2008 at 12:48 pm
I suppose it’s a question of degree too. I mean changing the “thees and thous” is one thing, but changing the sense of someone else’s stuff without making it clear that you’ve done so seems a bit iffy. You ought not deliberately to claim that someone else wrote something that you did, any more than you should say that you wrote something someone else did, as a matter of courtesy, not to mention honesty.
In response to the Golden Rule angle: I daresay people ought not to be too precious with what other people do to their lyrics, since they are only arrangements of air and therefore their originality (and thus the degree of “ownership” is also a question of degree. Intellectual protection is not a natural, but a conferred right, agreed by and in the interests of the majority. That’s what underpins copyright laws, for example, or at least, pretends to.
There are plenty of respectful ways of making old songs new, just as there are plenty of disrespectful ways of ruining them.
I think that a lyricist who has been working with a tune in mind, and the best ones all do, will use the dynamics of the music to amplify and augment the emotional or intellectual qualities of the words, so sometimes music and lyrics have to be taken together artistically.
David wrote @ July 15, 2008 at 12:57 pm
I wrote a new melody for a hymn that needed some slight theological clarification. I also made a chorus out of some preexisting material.
I hope that wouldn’t offend the original author. I tried to respect what he had written and prevent misunderstandings in the modern day.
Honestly, though, end of the day, I care a lot less about respecting the author than I do about God-glorifying music that benefits the Church.
ED… wrote @ July 15, 2008 at 12:57 pm
As an afterthought:
Here’s a song my wee brother Greg wrote for a BBC religious programme: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hw8hmQalHag)
Were I to cross from land to land
Or sail afar by sea
Descend the depths or climb the heights
My Lord remains with me
Before the blood ran in these veins
The days ordained for me
Were written in your book O Lord
Before I came to be
I grieve to hear your enemies
Speak hatred Lord, of You
Long though they scheme with ill-intent
Their days are numbered too
How precious are your thoughts to me
How countless, Lord, they are
More than the shores have grains of sand
More than the skies have stars
Come search and test this heart, O lord
Dispel each anxious thought
And lead me onward evermore
To tread the path I ought
How blessed am I, so bound with love
Surrounded, yet so free
In doubt or blessing, life or death
My Lord remains with me.
It’s clearly a song inspired out of Psalm 139. Does Greg get the “co-author” credit or do we stick David down as “Author”? I think that to call it David’s work is to do the bible a disservice, as his song had more in it. Having said that, it is hard to sing the original version in the modern idiom, since most of us lack the Hebrew, and we haven’t got a recording of the original music. |
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| Indelible Grace Music |
| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:07 pm |
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Site Admin
Joined: 06 Nov 2005
Posts: 75
Location: Nashville, TN
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| Interesting discussion - and a long-running one. John Wesley warned people in the preface of his hymnbook about altering texts - yet he did it to some Isaac Watts' texts in that very hymnal! I think ultimately you need to sing what is true and there is a long tradition of altering hymn texts - even though modern copyright law forbids this for songs not in the public domain. I think that if you make an edit or alteration you should say so - and we have tried to follow that policy. But there is a lit of disagreement about what is appropriate in this area. And sometimes it is difficult to discover if the version of a hymn you are singing is original or altered. And some changes are without question for the good. We don't sing "when my eye-string break in death" in Rock of Ages for example, even though that was Toplady's original line. And we don't sing the word "welkin" in Wesley's "Hard The Herald Angels Sing" |
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